Kanye West: think pop music has lost its edge? Here’s one titanic tunesmith who is keeping it sharp, sophisticated, and soulful to the core

Interview,  Oct, 2005  by Fiona Apple

He may not be a living, breathing endorsement for the virtues of higher education, but college diploma or none, Kanye West is making top grades in the music world. With his recently released new album, Late Registration (Roc-A-Fella/Def Jam), the follow-up to his Grammy-winning, multiplatinum debut, The College Dropout, West has proven that he can keep not only the collegiate metaphors coming but also the hits. Here the 28-year-old rapper and producer talks to another artist who knows that you don’t have to sleep to dream: Fiona Apple.

FIONA APPLE: Hey.

KANYE WEST: What up? What’s good?

FA: I’ll tell you what’s good: I love your album.

KW: Aw, damn, you actually heard it?

FA: Yeah, and I’m obsessed with that song “School Spirit” right now. I keep on listening to it over and over. I love how you do your stuff. It’s just so dynamic. It’s such a joy to listen to something and hear different turns of phrases and words that sound so satisfying. It’s just so rare. So, what are you doing?

KW: I just did rehearsals for the Pepsi Smash concert in Miami. One second. [to someone else in the room] Okay, so she’s going to go to the dinner with us? [to Apple] I’m sorry.

FA: So, are you this busy all the time?

KW: Yes, constantly.

FA: Do you like that?

KW: Nah! But it’s better than when I was trying to look for work. Now I make myself busy by trying new shit all the time.

FA: Do you like other stuff besides music? Or do you just live in music and that’s it?

KW: I do videos. I focus a lot on the art direction of projects. I’d like to run a label some day. But with the level of artistry I want to bring, it’s just a headache, dealing with so many different things. People don’t realize that I’ve worked with a lot of different artists just to get to the point today where I can work on my own stuff–so I stay on top of it all the way.

FA: I read that you went to college for one year and then dropped out to pursue music. Did you have one experience that closed the deal for you to quit and go off and start doing music, or was it a gradual thing?

KW: With school, I just didn’t really want to be there. I was like, How do these credits apply to what I want to do in my life? So I would take courses that I could use a little bit: piano, speech, public speaking, English–which all helps me now. I had a record deal on the table back when I was 19 with Donny Ienner, but he hit me with the “We’ll call you” thing. By the time that happened, I had already dropped out of school, so it was back to telemarketing and jobs like that.

FA: Back up a sec. You took public speaking?

KW: Yeah.

FA: Were you afraid of that? Did you ever have a fear of public speaking?

KW: Nah. I was always a ham.

FA: But you just took it to get certain skills?

KW: To get better, yeah. I always want to be the best at whatever I’m attempting to do.

FA: How much do you sleep at night?

KW: When I’m touring, I get my full seven hours. But, man, I got mad questions for you.

FA: No, this is the one thing that I’m so fucking nervous about: I’ve never interviewed anybody in my life! But I want you to know how you operate because your mind is always working. You’ve constantly got this symphony in your head. Do you have a lot of dreams at night when you sleep? I have a lot of dreams.

KW: Oh, yeah.

FA: Do you remember them?

KW: Wait–I thought you don’t go to sleep to dream? [laughs] Yeah, I do remember a lot of them. And I get deja vu a lot so I guess the future is told to me in my dreams.

FA: How often do you get deja vu?

KW: Whenever I’m on the right path. That’s what someone told me. Whenever you get deja vu that means you’re on the right path. I get it, like, more than ten times a year.

FA: Who told you that it means you’re on the right path?

KW: A friend of mine told me that, but I think God has me on a path. I think he puts certain people in my life, and angels send messages to me, like, Kanye, I want you to say this, and I want you to say that, and I want you to talk to this girl here, and I don’t want you to do this over here. I was going to do a video where I tried to represent that, where three girls are walking down the street and I want to talk to them, and the guy points out the girls, and says this is what would happen to you if you talked to her, and this what would happen if you talk to her, and this is the girl that you need to be with, blah, blah, blah. And somehow represent that visually.

FA: Are you going to do that?

KW: I don’t know. If I find a song that I could do that to, or maybe a movie concept if I ever get into doing movies.

FA: Aha! See? That’s what I was asking before. Is it just music? Or are there other things you want to do?

KW: I’ve had extensive conversations with Mark Romanek and Spike Jonze and Hype Williams. Those are my directors. Those are my heroes.

FA: You’re starting to get really cinematic in the music, too.

KW: Yeah, that’s Jon Brion, who co-produced my new record, Late Registration. He does music for movies, and when I heard the stuff that he put on your album, Extraordinary Machine, it was one of the things that really inspired me.

FA: Have you ever seen Jon Brion perform at Largo [a club in Los Angeles]?

KW: Yeah, I perform with him sometimes.

FA: You do? When you come to L.A. next time, we should go to Largo and do something.

KW: Ah, that would fuck people up! When was the last time you did something at Largo?

FA: Oh, I did something a week ago, and I’m actually going back tomorrow night.

KW: That’s crazy! Just that environment. The people are so close to you.

FA: I know. It’s a lot in your face, though I’m sure we mean that in different ways. I get a little bit nervous if there are not that many people.

KW: Because everybody’s looking at you?

FA: Not that they’re looking at me, but I just don’t like having to make eye contact with anybody. I love going to Largo, though.

KW: It’s dope. Jon Brion is so dope.

FA: He is one of my favorite, favorite people. I love him a lot.

KW: And his energy is so good to have while you’re working on an album. He comes in, and he’ll hear something that he likes and hit you with that. [makes noise]

FA: Yeah, yeah, yeah! [laughs]

KW: Now, when I listen to your shit, I hear similarities. I actually wanted to work with him so I could be like the rap version of you. That was one of my main goals. The albums that inspired me for Late Registration were your first one, Tidal [1996] and Portishead’s Dummy [1994], but especially your lyrics and how you sing. How is your vocabulary so ill? Were you tight in vocabulary in your school?

FA: No, but I just love words. I love looking at phrases books and word origins books because they have so many obsolete, never-used phrases. They have a rhythm to them.

You can build a whole song on a phrase that you like because it will spark something in your head, something that’s going on with you. You’ll hear a phrase and it will just ring true to you. I just love that.

KW: One thing that I like to do is use words that have never actually been used in a rap song before. I also like to take words that have negative connotations and show their real meaning. Like the word “pop.” This is a pop album, but pop has a negative connotation if you’re a “real artist.” The title of The College Dropout–that’s what that was. What is so negative about dropping out of college? Why do we automatically shun people who drop out of school?

FA: It’s a word without a context.

KW: Exactly. And if you think of the examples of people who have dropped out of college that pop into your head, they’re like Bill Gates and Michael Jordan. So is your album that’s coming out now, Extraordinary Machine, the same album that leaked on the internet, or did you make a couple of changes? Because my first album got leaked way before my shit came out, too.

FA: What was that like? Because I found my stuff on the Internet. I had just gotten a computer, and just started to use the Internet. So, of course I couldn’t resist trying to see what was being said about what was going on with my album, and I found the whole thing on the Internet. I didn’t know how to feel. I kind of didn’t feel. But I was also kind of furious. How did you feel?

KW: Well, I was upset when I first heard that people had the album and it was leaking slowly. There wasn’t as much of a demand for me at that point, but it built a demand, because people started passing it around going, “Yo, this shit is pretty good.” So it was kind of like a sampler for me, and at the end of the day I think it kind of helped promote me. But now people ask me how I feel about downloading, and my commercial for that would be: “Please don’t download, because I want to get a pool in my second home.”

FA: Yeah, right. I don’t even know how I feel about it–I just don’t want anybody to steal anything. But the thing that really bugs me about the leaking of my album was, who did it? Who took something that was not even done and leaked it? Why?

KW: You always want to know who that first person was. It’s like, Did you get paid fucking $100,000? Please tell me you got paid to do this to me.

FA: Because when you’re doing an album, you’re only around people who are really close and on your side. So it’s got to be somebody out of those people.

KW: Yeah, but sometimes it’s an intern or some thing like that.

FA: Yeah, that’s true. Anyway.

KW: Did you put any new songs on the record or is it the same joint that got leaked?

FA: It’s the same thing, but there’s a new song on there. I don’t want to talk about me.

KW: Well, I want to know. You don’t understand. I hold you higher than Lauryn Hill in my eyes.

FA: Oh, shit.

KW: Seriously. I see similarities, because of the distinctive deep voice and the level of wordplay.

FA: When I was 17 or 18, doing my first tours, we did so many road shows, and the Fugees were part of it for a while. I remember that I would watch Lauryn Hill, and it was so hard not to just quit, because she’s just so … Thanks for putting me in the same sentence.

KW: No, seriously. You’re like possibly my favorite. … [noise in the background]

FA: Do you have to go? I have to go, too.

KW: Okay, maybe we could talk at another time?

FA: Yeah, I really want to talk to you again. And think about when you come out to L.A. We’ll do Largo.

KW: Okay. Sounds good.

FA: All right. I had fun talking to you.

KW: Me, too.

FA: All right, bye.

Fiona Apple will release her third album, Extraordinary Machine (Epic) this month. [Oct, 2005]

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